some initial thoughts on moving from DOS PATN to PATNv3

[Ross Peacock]

Dear Lee,

My preliminary comments after an initial look at PATNv3:

1. I usually export the *.den files from DOS PATN and attach them to a spreadsheet, where I attribute them with various plot co-variates (eg geology, structure, etc.) for evaluation. I don’t seem to be able to do this with the new format of the dendogram image. I have also been unable to save the *.bmp file (error message: “bitmap not created. Image too large. Try saving with a reduced image width.”).

2. Group statistics – can these be exported in another format that readily permits sorting of species scores by group number and one of the descriptive statistics? From the current format, I would need to find a way to fill down the species abbreviations in the first column in order to sort the scores by group and species. This is the usual method I follow to evaluate the composition of the groups. I can probably find a programming solution to fill down these columns (it would be hopelessly slow in EXCEL) but this may be messy. The DOS PATN format for GSTA in the form of a matrix was easier to work with to rapidly summarise data within each group. I simply imported it into EXCEL and sorted by the groups (columns).

3. one of my colleagues asked if PATNv3 had an option for importing DOS PATN files. I said it did not and he was surprised. While I didn’t find it difficult to prepare the data matrix as a csv, some people probably will where their data is too large for EXCEL’s 256 column limit. While I continue to use DOS PATN for NNB and RIND I will need to prepare the data in both formats.

4. My current preferences for new modules in PATNv3 are for NNB and RIND.

Thanks
Ross

[lee]

Hi Ross

I value the feedback. I’ll address each issue you raised. Thanks for the feedback on the purchase/download. We have improved the comments through the process a little better.

Import. Yes, I really had concentrated so hard on getting Excel files into PATN, I hadn’t really fully considered the migration from the DOS version. Your point about the limitations of Excel we realised, but not all the implication. This is certainly an oversight on my part. We do need to add this as an import option. I figure we could ask for the xxx.prm file name and then pickup the data and labels from the stem filename (assume that the data file is xxx.dat, the labels xxx.rlb and xxx.clb). This should be quite easy. I’ll talk to our programmer tonight about this.

1. It looks like a problem with the size of the dendrogram bitmap. I hadn’t run into this before. I could save your dendrogram image using the option ‘Save As …bitmap – reduced width’. I’ll look into this as the dendrogram is not huge. Once you have the BMP file, you can embed it in anything such as Excel.

2. OK, point taken. Is the easy solution to fill out the matrix with the species labels? This would enable sorting across all table columns in Excel. As far as I can tell, this would be same as GSTA. This would also be very easy to do.

3. OK. I’ve dealt with this above. Fully agree.

As mentioned in a previous e-mail, I’m keen to see what the priorities of the PATN community are regarding other options modules such as NNB and RIND. I’ll put this response on the BB as these issues are ideal to share on BB. Once we have a ‘critical mass’ on the BB, we can use the ‘voting’ functions.

I’ll get onto seeking the solutions right away.

Lee

[Ross Peacock]

Dear Lee,

Thanks for the feedback.

The task of filling down the species labels into the empty cells would be lengthy if done via EXCEL using copy or fill down commands. I could probably find a programming solution in S-PLUS but that is more handling. If the group statistics output could simply fill these cells for the user it would be much easier.

I was able to save the bmp version of the dendogram in the reduced width format but cannot replicate the versatility of the DOS PATN version which could be annotated and sorted in EXCEL rows once pasted and formatted to a non-proportional font. The bmp version simply gets inserted into EXCEL as a picture, the dendogram arms cannot be accessed.

Ross

[lee]

Hi Ross

I think we will should be able to add the IMPORT DOS PATN dataset and GSTA fixes by Monday.

Figuring the BMP issue with the dendrogram needs some sleuthing but we should have a solution by then. PATN should work fine with your dataset. In discussing this issue, we may also add the ability to save in other formats such as jpg.

As for the ASCII version of DOS PATN – not sure at this stage. It feels uncomfortably like a step back in time and could require considerable resources.

When updated, we will add a link to the update that you can download (and update the shop downlaod version).

I’ll keep you posted.

Lee

[Ross Peacock]

Dear Lee,

Here is a description of how I use the old bitmap version of the dendograms. They aren’t pretty, but they are functional.

In a current case I have an 80 group dendogram of GIS polygon types (997 objects, 114 attributes) derived from remote sensing of overstorey species, and we simply dump the *.den file into EXCEL and then add some explanatory variables next to the dendogram arms. It’s a really simply way to look at relationships in the hierarchy. If we need a publication quality dendogram then the PATNv3 version is far superior. I would like to keep doing the exploratory work with the old bitmap version as well if we can still export it in this format.

Thanks
Ross

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